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Discussion Starter #1
TCS / Racetech to the rescue.......
 

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Looks awesome Craig and I've heard good things about these shocks!

Can you take a pic from further away? In that pic it looks like your ride height is huge!!!!!

Jay :p
 

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Its got a stand under it. LOL
 

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Haha, whoops! See, thats what I get for just taking a quick glance!!!

I'd like to see it sitting pretty all by itself then..lol..
 

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I have a set of Stock WP with Wayne at PEP to re valve,springs,Dual rate rear with adjuster and he gets another inch out of the rear ;)
 

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Now that's what I'm interested in, a high quality rework of the stockers. I'm sure the Tcs/Racetech shocks are great, but that defeats the reason that I bought this quad. I don't want to change all the shocks with other ones. ATV NRG keep us posted on the out come and pricing.
 

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Discussion Starter #7
ATV NRG

I'd be really keen to see what Wayne comes up with on these. I've been working through several spring suppliers in the US for a front and rear ZPS setup. The rear is easy as Eibach make a big range of 60mm ID springs includings keeper springs , platforms etc. My rear will be a tripple rate - ZPS on top of the dual rate set up I have in there now.

Fronts: what a pain inthe A**e... 2" springs are non existant. Santo Derisi has a 2" ZPS front spring which I"m getting sent over but 2" mains............ Most aftermarket front shocks use 1.88" ID springs, these are to tight on the WP body (maybe if it's machined down ?). At his time I'm looking into getting 2" mains made to my specs to suit. Front end will be a tripple rate (zps / tender / main)

I'd be very interested to see what Wayne comes up with, if anyone can sort these thing he will !

Racetech are also working on a stock revalve - respring deal............

I'd also be very interested in his comments on the std valving........ my shock guy had to make BIG changes to get things working nicely............
 

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i've seen a racer at the itp quadcross with pep revalves. it had different front springs. i talked to the guy and i think he said wayne charged him somewhere near a grand for all three.
 

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Discussion Starter #9
i've seen a racer at the itp quadcross with pep revalves. it had different front springs. i talked to the guy and i think he said wayne charged him somewhere near a grand for all three.
sure would like to know what front springs are on it, and if they are 1.88" mains how they squeezed them on............
 

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Hi Folks ,
ATV NRG is a PEP,JB racing and DASA dealer here in Australia ...
PEP Rebuild to Standard WP:
Front and rear custom build limited mass ,spring change ,valving ,internal mods with Extra inch travel on Rear ,cross over and Dual rate added .The RRP of Parts and Labour is $1600 US +Freight+Tax+AUD.
When ordering I usually fill out a rider spec sheet with Details of Rider ability ,Weight ,disaplin,tyres,wheels and any extras on the Quad.
I could ask him for a forum bulk buy if you anyone is interested , and possibly arrange direct delivery from the states to where ever you are...to save on freight ?
I will be testing and setting up a Pro racers 505 with this set up Mid January 09.
I will keep you posted on our findings.

Ultimate solution :
He also does a full ZPS PEP front and rear and gets an extra inch all round by modifying the Stock lower Front A Arms or JB Racing will do a lower set of A Arms to accommodate the longer stock.
I know this is going away from why we buy the KTM Race ready package ,however I just sold a Honda TRX 450 Full Race Spec $14K (Owed me over $35K to buy and accessorize :eek: ) but if you really can't help yourself and want overkill , Im sure the KTM will cost you less overall and you will have a lighter, lower center of gravity package over anything else .
I race Vets 35 + I will probably settle for the WP Rebuilds as they seem like such good value...I like the idea of that :)
Cheers Len
ATV NRG
0422 479 788
www.atvnrg.com.au
[email protected]g.com.au
 

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I came on the site to post a new topic about this very subject. I had a long conversation with Seth @ SF Racing which is the "go to" place for PEP shocks. Although I was calling about what options I have for my Honda, we got to talking about the KTM. I was informed of many things I would like to pass on ...

First, despite the fact the KTM manual indicates the expected rider weight to be 154-176lbs., Wayne at PEP was heavily involved in the development of the quad (as well as many pro riders) and claims KTM over-valved and over-sprung the hell out of the shocks. Seth @ SF actually laughed when I told him my weight (about 150 - I know, I'm light) because the shocks are known to be way, way, way too stiff for anyone under 280lbs :eek: :angry: (not a mis-type, 280). I could barely believe it but I guess it's true. I find this to also be very interesting because I do not find the shocks to be that stiff, but I think I am just convincing myself that they are not because the manual says they should accomodate my weight, therefore I should have no reason to complain.

I found out today RaceTech has a conversion package for the stock WP's (which is conveniently posted above I've noticed) as does PEP. I am told that for $1500, all three shocks are literally completely disassembled and gone through. The only parts that remain when PEP is finished are the shock bodies and rezzies. The result is customized high-flow ball bearing valving for both high and low-speed compression front and rear, new rebound adjustment range, triple-rate springs up front with dual-rate springs in the rear, new clips, new springs, new bottom-out stops, everything. The price is steep for rebuilds but you basically get back a set of brand new personalized-to-your-specs PEP shocks front and rear that should dominate all. Apparently the service takes nearly 5 hours to complete (hence the higher price for the labor side).

Seth informed me that they have completed 4 or 5 of these rebuilds and the results are amazing. The two sets he is working on right now are from guys well over 200lbs who claim the stock setup is unrideable, so I am really wondering how my lightweight self can even handle it :p

Kiwi - how does the new setup feel? Do you mind saying how much RaceTech charges and if you think the price is justified?
 

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Guys, You might want to give the site sponsor RocketRon a chance with the WPs. He has been taking care of you guys for a while and his pricing cannot be beat. He is servicing your shocks at $50 a shock while everyone else is $80.

He is currently running a deal that the first guy to send a set of WPs his way gets them done free I believe. Take a look into his section.
 

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Discussion Starter #13
Wayne at PEP was heavily involved in the development of the quad (as well as many pro riders) and claims KTM over-valved and over-sprung the hell out of the shocks. Seth @ SF actually laughed when I told him my weight (about 150 - I know, I'm light) because the shocks are known to be way, way, way too stiff for anyone under 280lbs :eek: :angry: (not a mis-type, 280). I could barely believe it but I guess it's true. I find this to also be very interesting because I do not find the shocks to be that stiff, but I think I am just convincing myself that they are not because the manual says they should accomodate my weight, therefore I should have no reason to complain.
FINALLY validation of what I've been saying all along.......... the stock setting /set - up is crappola........ raer springs are 8 - 9 KG/mm, 7.5 is whats recommended for 200 lbs.......

My valving guy made mega changes in the valving department. We have changed all the rear springs, and the front is next, I guess PEP machined down the front bodies to get 1.88" springs to fit, no one makes 2"ID springs suitable.........

If I lived in the US i'd have Wayne do the work based on wmat I've spent and still have to do the PEP price is on the money. Either that or bin the useless POS............... and fit up either PEP ZPS / AXIS PRS.
 

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FINALLY validation of what I've been saying all along.......... the stock setting /set - up is crappola........ raer springs are 8 - 9 KG/mm, 7.5 is whats recommended for 200 lbs.......

My valving guy made mega changes in the valving department. We have changed all the rear springs, and the front is next, I guess PEP machined down the front bodies to get 1.88" springs to fit, no one makes 2"ID springs suitable.........

If I lived in the US i'd have Wayne do the work based on wmat I've spent and still have to do the PEP price is on the money. Either that or bin the useless POS............... and fit up either PEP ZPS / AXIS PRS.
The Pro Racer who won the Pro and Vets OZ MX National in 2007 (A Honda ATV NRG set up with Outlaw LSR Swinger and LSR A Arms wit Ohlins PDS ) He is 250Lbs and loves these WP shocks out of the crate ! :lol: We did another 20 sets to Racers here and PEP got 1st and 3rd Pro and 1st ,2nd and 3rd in Vets here at the 2008 MX Nationals just gone .
We Used PEP Last Year on the Hondas with JB front and LT rear swinger and we loved the way Wayne gets them spot on with the information we gave him .At each State and National event with diffent conditions we were on the phone to Wayne and blown away with the advice he gave .
Wayne invented ZPS and owns the patent ,I beleive no other suspension is true Zero or No Preload .
I just sent the 250Lb Pro racer's (Team KTM ATV OZ) WP to Wayne and feel super confident they will come back spot on and believe money well spent .
I will be sending My 505 WP to a WP agent here in OZ to support KTM Australia and give them the opportunity to get it right.
The only issue is travel and progression without a link if the WP are set up too plush (Like a Good Honda ,Suzuki or Yamaha ) they will tend to blow thru the travel and eventually buck(Like any suspension) ,so I suggest valve /Spring them on the firm side ,just not as firm as they are now if you weigh less than 250Lbs .
Cheers Len
 

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Discussion Starter #15
Len

I need to talk with you tomorrow in aus, send me your details. Yeah at 250lbs he probably is getting things to move, it will still benefit from significantly from alterations especially in the low speed valving.

Zero preload, Wayne would like you to beileve that no one else has this, but that isn't correct,
TCS has race series - No preload
AXIS has Plush Ride System (PRS),
Fox has the Evol chamber on the Floats - ride height adjuster
and Elka has a similar setup ? sag control ?,

they just can't call it ZPS / Zero preload as Wayne has a trademark on the name, but no patent on the concept I believe.

All the major shock suppliers have a zero preload type system on offer, even Works offer this in there OEM upgrade spring kits as an option.

I doing a truckload of work on the WP's the details of which will go to KTM NZ, which is linked to KTM Australia and the new KTM race team just announced in Aus.

I agree that the no link system has challenges, but the WP and Ohlins shocks have a secondary internal piston which provides additional progressive damping resistance as the shock compressed past 2/3 travel. Combine this with a well though out proper dual rate spring setup in the rear (the stock SX setup is way off the mark, i'll post why over in the suspension section) and there will be a huge improvement. ZPS ride height adjustability will be the icing on the cake...........
 

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Len

I need to talk with you tomorrow in aus, send me your details. Yeah at 250lbs he probably is getting things to move, it will still benefit from significantly from alterations especially in the low speed valving.

Zero preload, Wayne would like you to beileve that no one else has this, but that isn't correct,
TCS has race series - No preload
AXIS has Plush Ride System (PRS),
Fox has the Evol chamber on the Floats - ride height adjuster
and Elka has a similar setup ? sag control ?,

they just can't call it ZPS / Zero preload as Wayne has a trademark on the name, but no patent on the concept I believe.

All the major shock suppliers have a zero preload type system on offer, even Works offer this in there OEM upgrade spring kits as an option.

I doing a truckload of work on the WP's the details of which will go to KTM NZ, which is linked to KTM Australia and the new KTM race team just announced in Aus.

I agree that the no link system has challenges, but the WP and Ohlins shocks have a secondary internal piston which provides additional progressive damping resistance as the shock compressed past 2/3 travel. Combine this with a well though out proper dual rate spring setup in the rear (the stock SX setup is way off the mark, i'll post why over in the suspension section) and there will be a huge improvement. ZPS ride height adjustability will be the icing on the cake...........


Hello Craig ,
I really believe the KTM platform is leaps and bounds ahead in Suspension,Motor and Chassis dynamics than any other Quad on the market ...it is Race ready ?I believe yes ,can it be improved -yes but surely so could my Honda @ 35 K and your Yfz @ $?
I understand the PDS concept working with them in 2007 and getting them to a National Pro win with a 250 Lb rider . Thsame rider tells me the PEP ZPS with the same rider were better in 2008 On PEP he won the Vets 35 + and I was third ( He is 41 and im 44 years young ,we have been racing together on and off since 1985 :) ) but unfortunatly he had a DNF in the Pro ranks due to a stalled and flooded motor.
Craig I feel Wayne at PEP is on the money with the rebuilds and with his full PEP Suspension ,it has really worked well for my race set ups and any racer I know that has used ,no returns or shody workmanship ever !
Fox Air :I believe they are not Zero or nil pre load and the Suzuki ATV Race team USA in 2008 ran different internals than the ones available from the supplier and actually sacrific travel to lower the Quad and firm it at the initial part of the stroke to make it handle correct ,as you compress air they get firmer as it gets to its limit ,I am told PEP is the only suspension that is the same throughout its stroke and the advantage of True PEP ?
All the other brands other than PEP ZPS : I am told no other brand is true Zero or nil preload but actually do have some pre load and this has an effect on the workings of the suspension are Are other brands good? I believe so ,however in my opinion Wayne at PEP has nailed it and we are purley results driven .
I would be great to talk to you Craig you can get me on 0422 479 788 :)
Take it easy
Len
ATV NRG
 

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Discussion Starter #17
the zero preload concept has been around for years in off road racing circles (trucks and buggies). You can buy zero preload keeper springs from Eibach in most popular spring sizes and from Works for several OEM atv shocks. There has to be some small amount of preload, usually only a few lbs pressure to stop the other springs from popping there keeper platforms etc out. What Wayne is saying is he runs the absolute lightest possible keeper spring setup with his thin wire spring ZPS keepers vs other supplier with springs of a few lbs in there keeper set ups.

Without a doubt Wayne is singularly the most experienced ATV shock builder out there for hard core MX applications, and really what you are buying is the 30 plus years of setup expertise he has developed. I don't doubt that for a second !
 

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All this talk about shocks, what about the elka race shock, how would they stack up
great forum by the way and hope to get tips for my new 450sx
 

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Len

I need to talk with you tomorrow in aus, send me your details. Yeah at 250lbs he probably is getting things to move, it will still benefit from significantly from alterations especially in the low speed valving.

Zero preload, Wayne would like you to beileve that no one else has this, but that isn't correct,
TCS has race series - No preload
AXIS has Plush Ride System (PRS),
Fox has the Evol chamber on the Floats - ride height adjuster
and Elka has a similar setup ? sag control ?,

they just can't call it ZPS / Zero preload as Wayne has a trademark on the name, but no patent on the concept I believe.

All the major shock suppliers have a zero preload type system on offer, even Works offer this in there OEM upgrade spring kits as an option.

I doing a truckload of work on the WP's the details of which will go to KTM NZ, which is linked to KTM Australia and the new KTM race team just announced in Aus.

I agree that the no link system has challenges, but the WP and Ohlins shocks have a secondary internal piston which provides additional progressive damping resistance as the shock compressed past 2/3 travel. Combine this with a well though out proper dual rate spring setup in the rear (the stock SX setup is way off the mark, i'll post why over in the suspension section) and there will be a huge improvement. ZPS ride height adjustability will be the icing on the cake...........

Hello Craig ,
This is Wayne's Response to this thread and I feel covers most angles...
LEN,
THINKING LIKE THAT IS WHY I AM IN BUSINESS.THESE COMPANIES LIKE TO DOWNGRADE OUR ACHIEVEMENTS BUT ALL WANT TO CLAIM THEY HAVE THE SAME TYPE OF SYSTEMS. WE ARE CURRENT AND PAST U.S. AND FOREIGN NATIONAL AND WORLD CHAMPIONS EVERY YEAR SINCE WE RELEASED THE THE ZPS SYSTEM IN 1997. NO ONE IN THE INDUSTRY CAN CLAIM THAT.

THE FOX EVOL MEANS ''EXTRA VOLUME''. WHEN THE SHOCK COMPRESSES,
THE LOW PRESSURE CHAMBER RISES IN PRESSURE. THIS PRESSURE CONTROLS THE SPRING RATE AND LOAD WHICH IS PARABOLICALY PROGRESSIVE. TO PREVENT THE PRESSURE RISE WHICH IS THE SPRING FROM BECOMING TOO FIRM, THE EXTRA VOLUME CHAMBERS PISTONS BEGINS MOVING TO OPEN UP THE CHAMBER TO SOFTEN THE SPRING RATE / LOAD AT THE LAST 1/3 GENERALLY OF TRAVEL WHICH IS THE POINT THAT BOTH PRESSURE EQUALIZE, WHICH THEN SOFTENS THE TRAVEL ON DOWN TO BOTTOM. SOME PROS
HAVE TO MAXIMIZE THE EVOL CHAMBERS PRESSURE OUT TO STOP BOTTOMING WHICH MAKES IT A SINGLE CHAMBER SHOCK LIKE THE STANDARD FOX FLOAT. IF YOU LOWER THE LOW PRESSURE THE ATV LOWERS BUT IS SOFT AND BOTTOMS BECAUSE SPRING RATE RISE AND LOAD ALSO SOFTENED. THIS ALSO CAUSES EXCESSIVE CHASSIS ROLL. BOTH NEGATIVELLY AFFECT RIDEABILITY.
IF YOU INCREASE THE LOW PRESSURE THE ATV RISES BUT THEN BECOMES TO STIFF AROUND MID TRAVEL. THIS IS CLEARLY NOT PEP ZPS WHICH HAS THE SAME
SPRING RATE AT ANY HEIGHT. SPRING RATE AND HEIGHT ARE INDEPENDENT.
THAT IS PART OF WHY PEP ZPS IS UNIQUE.

AXIS PRS IS RATHER COMPICATED ANTI-BOTTOMING DAMPING CONTROL
ASSEMBLY. WE DESIGNED AND MADE PROTOTYPES OF THIS EXACT TYPE OF SYSTEM IN 1995 AND RAN THEM IN A RACES. WE LEARNED ALOT THAT WAS
APPLIED TO OUR LTD. MASS SYSTEM WHICH IS IN EVERY PEP ZPS SHOCK.
THE PRS WORKS WELL FOR CORNERS BUT HAS DIFICULTY IN EVEN AND UNEVEN BUMPS SAME AS OUR SYSTEM EXPERIENCED.IT IS A CHARACTERISTICS FLAW. THAT IS WHY WE NEVER RELEASED IT. IT WAS NICE THAT SOME PEOPLE RECOGNIZED IT AS OUR SYSTEM FROM BACK THEN WHEN THEY SAW IT WHEN IT CAME OUT 2007. IAN FFITCH FROM NEW ZEALAND DID THE TEST RIDING FOR ME ON IT.
HE IS THE ONLY FOREIGN RIDER TO EVER WIN AN AMERICAN NATIONAL,EVER. HE WON THAT NATIONAL IN 1996 ON OR ZPS WHEN NO ONE ELSE HAD IT. AFTER THAT RACE MY OTHER RIDERS SAID HE 'S GOOD BUT NOT THAT GOOD AND WANTED ZPS. I GAVE TO TIM FARR, SHANE HITT AND HAROLD GOODMAN AND THE REST IS HISTORICAL FACT HOW OUR ZPS PERFORMS. IAN SAID THAT WILL BE THE LAST NATIONAL HE WILL WIN WHEN THOSE GUYS GOT IT.OUR ZPS MAKES THAT BIG A DIFFERENCE.

THE *********** AND OHLIN PDS TYPE SYSTEMS ENGAGE AT THE BOTTOMING
BUMPER WHICH HAS MINIMAL EFFECT. THE IMPACT HAS BLOWN THROUGH THE TRAVEL BY THAT POINT AND A SUDDEN BOTTOMING IS FELT BECUASE IT IS JUST TOO LATE IN THE TRAVEL TO BE EFFECTIVE. I HAVE DYNO'd ALL THESE UNITS AND FIND BEST EFFECTS WITH THE BUMPERS AND IN SOME CASES INCONJUNCTION WITH A BUMPER CUP. SOME AS IN THE CASE OF A KTM 450 / 525 XC ENGAGES THE PDS 3 MM INTO THE BUMPER WHICH IS SO SHORT IN REMAINING TRAVEL AS TO BE LESS THAN IDEALLY EFFECTIVE, HENCE THE RIDER COMPLAINTS.

AS FOR ALL THE OTHERS TCS, WORKS AND THE LIKE WITH WHAT THEY BELIEVE IS A NO PRELOAD SYSTEM, IF YOU RAISE OR LOWER THE ATV IT DOES HAVE A PRELOAD EFFECT ON THE SPRINGS.PUT IT ON A DIGITAL CHECKER AS I HAVE AND IT IS VERY NOTICEABLE. IT EVEN CHANGED ALL THEIR CROSSOVER POINTS WHICH YOU KNOW HOW MUCH THAT AFFECTS THE RIDE QUALITY. THEIR SPRING RATES AND LOADS ALL ARE AFFECTED. RAISE THE ATV IT ALSO GETS FIRM OR HARSH AND LESS COMPLIANT IN BUMPS AND PUSHES, LOWER AND THEY GET SOFTER WHICH CAUSES CHASSIS ROLL, PITCH ONTO THE NOSE IN BUMPS AND BRAKING, KICKING AND A LOOSE REAR END THAT WANTS TO SLIDE OUT AND WHEELSPIN.

THEY ALL CAN CLAIM WHAT THEY WANT BUT IT'S BUYER BEWARE.THEY CAN BUY A CLAIM OR WHAT'S PROVEN.WE DO OUR HOMEWORK AND OUR REPUTATION IS
EVERYTHING.THEY CAN BUY OURS OR THEIRS AND THEN OURS. WHICHEVER IS MORE COST EFFECTIVE.

LEN, YOU GUYS KNOW THE DIFFERENCE,YOU'VE HAD THEIRS AND OURS BOTH.

Cheers
Len
 

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Has anyone ridden on a set of reworked WP's yet? Curious how well they work....trying to decide if its worth it or if I should just buy new shocks.
 
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