The Xc Iíve been working on...
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  1. #1
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    The Xc Iíve been working on...

    Hi all,

    Not sure if anyone recalls, but I introduced myself a few months back. I had a few questions about my first Ktm and moving forward with my build.

    Well I have made some progress and things are starting to come together. Itís nothing crazy in regards to a race bike. But I am looking forward to getting it going within the next few weeks.

    The bike is an 08 xc I found locally and purchased on a whim. I got a decent price and the bike was certainly rideable. However, it did need some lovin. It was primarily driven on PA coal and not properly washed after each ride. The acid in the coal did a number on most of the aluminum.

    Regardless, I purchased it with the intent on tearing it down and giving it a few upgrades and going through everything to bring it back to life. Other than a test drive Iíve never even ridden the thing.

    Iím pretty well into the build at this point and Iím waiting on a few odds and ends to finish it up. (It still needs a lot of work)

    Hereís a list of some of the things I upgraded and rebuilt. Iím looking to come out the other end with a bike that looks clean and factoryish . I even tried to find OEM graphics but canít seem to locate a set. There is one more thing I need to get done and will over the next few months and that suspension. Iíll either be going with derisi or rocket Ron on their full rebuilt ohlins.



    Parts list and refreshes items.

    Chassis:
    Everything from the brakes, lines, ball joints, seals etc have either been replaced or thoroughly cleaned and refreshed.

    Fresh black powder everything.

    Every single bolt replaced with polished stainless Allenís.

    New goldspeed wheels (beadlock rears)

    Flexx bars

    22in gbc fronts
    20in cst pulse in the rear.

    2010 sx subframe

    New sx seat, intake boot/stiffener is the way

    New black or OEM fenders. (I have new, maier white fronts, complete black and OEM orange sets. Not sure what to go with yet.

    Ktm hardparts hood

    Quadtech hood on the way

    Fourwex seat cover on the way

    New chain and sprockets 15t up front

    Case saver


    Motor:


    Head, carb and new OEM crank were sent to john at Racers Edge. Head and cylinder vapor blasted and cases and covers powdered.

    +1 valves. New seats, guides and seals

    Johns port Work

    33.5 bored fcr ncvq needle, leak jet installed etc

    Millennium Freshly plated factory 97mm cylinder (factory 540 came with the bike)

    12.5/1 wossner piston

    Web 821 cam. I also have a 833. Both are pretty similar but I did put the web in to start off.

    Ktmbill full pipe. ( should be here in the next two weeks or so)

    I went through everything on the Motor and replaced any bearings seals, o rings etc.

    I have some pics to start and as I button everything up over the next few weeks Iíll be a bit more diligent about documenting it. Any input, constructive criticism please let me know. I ride big wide open
    Coal access roads and big PA coal hills. Iím
    Coming from banshees and atc250rs. I had a yfz and hated it. Very slow and very expensive to make fast.

    Anyway, Iím looking forward to having a 4stroke in the stable and to be honest out of anything Iíve worked on. This is buy far the most impressive atv engineering Iíve ever seen. Everything is so easy to work on and so practical.

    Please excuse the messy garage. Itís a small space and it gets out of hand every once and a while. I keep anything thatís not getting worked on elsewhere.

    Thanks guys and hope everyone and their families are staying safe.





















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  2. #2
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    Look awesome. Solid work. Love to hear your thoughts about how the motor work turns out. It would be great to get John at RE’s name out there a little more visible in a positive manner for the KTM family. What he can do at his shop with his guys is make stuff go fast and be reliable.

    Anyways, just a couple of thoughts if you haven’t upgraded theses yet.
    Mino High Flow Pump and DJH Manuel Cam Chain tensioner. Also, I hope you can get her on the dyno to be properly tuned.

  3. #3
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    What he said up there^ manual tensioner isn’t too necessary as they rarely rearely fail. Mainly an SX deal as oil presser controls those. Still an awesome upgrade.
    You really need some type of compound in stainless steel bolts on aluminum threads, they will react and eventually become stuck, not fun to deal with.
    To add a little power, the SX intake with stiffener and twin air power flow kit will help out. I’ll also add that 8/33 is the biggest you can go cam-wise as the wossner relief pockets aren’t deep at all. I don’t know about that specific web cams but if it has even more lift/duration then I would be checking valve-to-piston for sure. 60thou on the intakes, 80 thou on the exhaust.
    With that piston, the CC needs slightly re-worked or piston will come into contact with it.
    If you ride hard for long periods of time, you really should have an oil cooler along with the mino.
    BLEED THE HEAD BEFORE YOU GO RIPPING!!
    Important that it is broken in properly.
    Only use 1/6th turn method to adjust valves. Feeler guages aren’t accurate as the tappets get play.
    With your setup, I would start with:
    NCVQ needle 3rd clip
    45-48 pilot
    168 main
    If you got your accelerator pump drilled, I would recomend a 55-50 leak jet. Important that the nozzle sprays they fuel right into the intake valves as if it doesent it can’t atomized correctly.
    Rocket ron can make your shocks a national level competition setup.
    If you don’t gusset stock a-arms, it’s important you set your toe -.5 with tie rie rods parallel to rest of bike. Makes for toe-in on acceleration but the top a-arms flex in the corners and if you don’t set it up like that the weird angles will make it unpredictable.
    Di-electric grease ever last electrical connection!!!
    Last edited by Youngwildandfree; 04-22-2020 at 03:30 AM.

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    All good input guys. Much appreciated. Iíll certainly be getting it on a dyno as soon as things open up around here.

    I do use anti seize on all ss and all electrical connections are greased. All the bolts are new and left over from a few builds Iíve done over the years.

    In regards to the larger impeller... Iíve had difficulty locating a mino. I do know Travis sells one, however I have tried to buy things from thumper about 5 times in the last 3 months with no luck getting any contact back. ( the main reason I went with RE. Johns customer service is second to none) do these bikes really run hot if modded? I understand the added comfort and obviously itís a benefit to have better flow. Again please keep in mind... no two hour races or anything crazy. I ride hard but it is recreational only.

    As far as the wossner and cc work please elaborate. Everything was mocked and all clearances were checked and with tolerance. You have me nervous. I got the piston from ct and he said he has great success with them.

    I would have went with cp. but again issues with contacting Travis for a 97mm 12.5/1.

    Iíll be sure to run you toe spec to avoid any potential issues.

    And lastly I have the pro design power filter ordered along with the sx tube and stiffener. So I should be in good shape there. I understand people have success with fci I just prefer foam to paper when riding coal. Also the added protection with the stock sx set up.

    Iíll be putting some time in tomorrow a bunch of stuff just showed up today. But still waiting on a few OEM seals and gaskets to button the clutch side of the motor. So this week Iíll get all my tires mounted brakes bled. Little odds and ends until Iím ready to get the motor in the frame.

    Thanks again and please let me know your experience with the wossner. Gasket thicknessí etc.

    Thanks


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  6. #5
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    Also, right now Iím 165m 45p ncvq 3rd Clip and a 55 leek with the drilled nozzle.

    Iíll throw a 168m in it just to be sure Iím fat for break in.

    Iíve always been a heat cycle guy to break in on any fresh motor.

    Let me know you procedure and what youíve had success with in the past.


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  7. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Youngwildandfree View Post
    What he said up there^ manual tensioner isnít too necessary as they rarely rearely fail. Mainly an SX deal as oil presser controls those. Still an awesome upgrade.
    You really need some type of compound in stainless steel bolts on aluminum threads, they will react and eventually become stuck, not fun to deal with.
    To add a little power, the SX intake with stiffener and twin air power flow kit will help out. Iíll also add that 8/33 is the biggest you can go cam-wise as the wossner relief pockets arenít deep at all. I donít know about that specific web cams but if it has even more lift/duration then I would be checking valve-to-piston for sure. 60thou on the intakes, 80 thou on the exhaust.
    With that piston, the CC needs slightly re-worked or piston will come into contact with it.
    If you ride hard for long periods of time, you really should have an oil cooler along with the mino.
    BLEED THE HEAD BEFORE YOU GO RIPPING!!
    Important that it is broken in properly.
    Only use 1/6th turn method to adjust valves. Feeler guages arenít accurate as the tappets get play.
    With your setup, I would start with:
    NCVQ needle 3rd clip
    45-48 pilot
    168 main
    If you got your accelerator pump drilled, I would recomend a 55-50 leak jet. Important that the nozzle sprays they fuel right into the intake valves as if it doesent it canít atomized correctly.
    Rocket ron can make your shocks a national level competition setup.
    If you donít gusset stock a-arms, itís important you set your toe -.5 with tie rie rods parallel to rest of bike. Makes for toe-in on acceleration but the top a-arms flex in the corners and if you donít set it up like that the weird angles will make it unpredictable.
    Di-electric grease ever last electrical connection!!!
    I saw your update about the piston. John and I discussed cutting the pockets and came to the conclusion that I have the clearances to drop it in.

    I was going to deck the head and cut the piston and degree the cam. But I would have had to notch the cam. To much work for a little more compression.

    Next year when I do a top end over the winter john will have two custom
    Pistons made for the bike. I would like to be around 14:1. If anyone wants to grab the other itís an option.

    But thanks Young. You seem to know these bikes and are a great resource.


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  8. #7
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    Everyone seems to tout the oil coolers and high volume impellers on the XC, but unless you are running long distance races or mud where things can get plugged up and you loose some cooling capacity I've never seen the need for it. That's with my mildly modded 525XC and my dad's factory 540 with similar mods running 20 min motos and sand dune use. The fan does run, but not excessively and not to the point it doesn't keep the temps in check. The SX engines run much warmer. Even with a hi-flow impeller and engine ice the fan on my 505SX runs a lot, but I've still never had it boil over as long as the fan was working.
    Mine:
    2017 Husky FX 450
    2009 505 SX
    2008 525 XC-modded for mx (currently 450 cylinder)
    Dad's:
    2009 450 SX
    2008 540 XC

  9. #8
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    No problem,
    It’s not the valve pockets that’s the problem unless you go more than 8/33.
    It’s the outer edge of the dome. Wants to hit the CC. I have stayed away from wossner since Travis at thumper told me I would have to free hand .020 off the edges of the CC.
    If your builder is confident I’m sure it’ll be fine.
    I found it pretty not worth it to try to deck the cylinder as sticking to that spec I could only get like an extra .5 compression or so.
    Travis told me he could be out until thurs/fri, call Frances and leave a message and she’ll get back to you. Just be ready to answer. They are super busy or soemthing as their customer service has went from good to mediocre at best lately.
    If that 8/33 is new PLEASE text me. I’ll buy it right now. 614-565-1524
    Quad97, oil cooler isn’t necessarily a running temperature thing as you know how the cooling system works as basically OEM only cooling cylinder. Cooling the oil is important if you do any type of hard riding because the roller bearing mains already take
    Abuse with these heavy cranks and loads since it’s a quad. Like you said only a BIG deal on hard and long rides, but it sure helps for any condition. It’s not just main bearings that takes the load too. Entire bottom end is under lots of stress.
    I forget if you asked for a break in procedures I can run ya through it if you like. Everyone’s will be a little different, I’ve had success with mine.

  10. #9
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    Yea I think weíre on the same page when it comes to cooling. I think with some common sense and monitoring Iíll be able to tell if the impeller is something the motor needs. Since I mainly pit ride and take frequent breaks.

    I also agree with decking these heads. Itís quite a bit of work for 1 compression point at most.

    Iím going to give John a call tomorrow. The 821 is a more aggressive cam than an 833. 833 is .347/.361 and the .821 is .390/.410. Also all of webs cams have more lift and the same or more duration than the 833. And 2 of their cams are drop in cams.

    All Piston to valve clearances were checked but your making me nervous about the cc. It might be best to pull the head off and take a look. Wouldnít base and head gasket thickness have an effect on it as well?

    I was ready to have Travis build the motor for me and then never got any call backs. Left a few messages for Frances. In addition just wanted to buy a 97mm cp from him and same story.

    If I find a impeller solution elsewhere Iíll certainly add it.

    The 8/33 is slightly used but literally shows no signs of wear. Iím going to give it a try and see what can I prefer. Depending on what I decide Iíll send some more info over for you to see if your still interested.

    I know every person has their own break in procedure. I also know two strokes are completely different than 4s. I also know I havenít broken in a complete top and bottom rebuilt four stroke in a while.

    If you have something that works Iím all ears.


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  11. #10
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    You need to measure squish, not piston to valve. Like said valve clearances will be fine if you checked them and they are in spec. Surprises with that much extra lift/duration im assuming your about as close as you can get with that wossner. Should be fine. Heard nothing but great things about racers edge. Talk to John and see what he says about measuring squish on the edges. When I need a reply from thumper I email them and then call and tell them my name and email and tell them I left a email and to call or email back ASAP, I do this every time I send an email. I would ask him about the wossner, water pump kit, and water seal kit. I really recomend having the hiflo pump, grab his water seal kit too, they are way better than stock, they have two seals and the carrier or better made. these have heat issues from factory, thrown in bigger boom and you got an issue, especially when rad gets some mud in it.. I’ve also found the 540s have issues getting coolant to back side of cylinder. I checked with DJH and he confirmed this was a known issue. I’ve remedied this with my own custom cooling lines. I think the stock lines are running design, and the y kit is even worse for people that ride hard. those, the mino, and engine ice keep me below 180 even in 90-100 degree weather. But I run an oil cooler too.
    Forgot to mention, when adjusting valves, 1/6th turn method only. Feeler gauge is not accurate unless done a certain way.
    Depending on how big he went on your head work, your rev out is going to be much much much better than how these came. Although I’m afraid the bottom Will suffer with that big of a cam.
    Careful not to hold it on the limiter, I’m assuming he welded your crank pin hopefully. That’s a must. If you hold them at high rpms a lot you’ll throw the crank out of true and gaul the bearings, this is not to worry you, this will only happen if you ride it like an idiot. Just constantly bouncing off the limiter. I’ve even gone the extra mile to get a dyntech CDI and get the rev limit set lower. We’ll see how that goes.
    So for break in:
    To keep it as short as possible:
    I beleive it is beneficial to run a break in oil due to zinc content and allowing rings to seat. However, if you want to run the oil you plan on using through the engines life, IT IS NOT A PROBLEM!! I like maxima break in 15-50. The zinc content is good for cam lobes and somewhat bearings.
    So you’re breakin in a full fresh motor. Here’s what i do:
    With oil and filters in, GOBS of assembly lube on all friction surfaces in motor, especially cam, I turn the motor over several times without spark plug in it, to build oil pressure. If your engine sits for a while before start up, pull the oil line on top and squirt some oil down in the hole to get the lobes and rollers real good. Make sure coolants in and head is blead.
    Go rich in jetting, if anything because DONT WORRY ABOUT IT WHILE YOURE BREAKING IN!!! Very little idling!
    Through this whole process, be choppy on the gas, not constant RPMS.
    Start it, give it 60-120 seconds just to get the CC hot, and then heat cycle. Go up and down through the gears, reaching half throttle every gear, and then back down through the gears, engine brake fairly hard, this really helps set your rings. Do this until up to operating temp and a few more times, then shut down and let it cool until cold to the touch.
    The. Exact same thing, only 3/4 throttle this time, Decelerate a little harder. Do this cycle a few times.
    Now your bearings have found their groove and cam has some time on it.
    Change oil and check for shavings and what not.
    Now time to really break her in.
    Use the same procedure as above, only HARD! Like you’re racing.
    Choppy, wide open, up and down through the gears, decelerate HARD and really force those rings against the walls.
    Do this 5 times or so.
    By now, you have 1-2 hours on it and you’re main break in is over. Now change oil again And use your oil of choice this time. A few shavings are not a big deal. You don’t want a lot of chunks. Your oil should also have a glazed metal shiny look to it, that’s the rings braking in. Normal.
    Now do the easy part, go ride it! Don’t be a whimp when riding it. It still needs to be seated further. But you’ve done the hard part now.
    And, seriously. These 540s are FAST engines. I don’t know you’re riding level. But make sure you respect the machine. And make sure your breaks and clutch are blead and working well before taking it out. Well-blended 540s working at peak performance have numbers that are comparable to pro level XC quads. (From what I’ve heard, I’ve never dynod a pro-built quad).

    So now you need to do the easy part. Go have fun!
    Anything you need a quick reply on, or if you want to get rid of that cam, my numbers still up there for a much faster reply.
    Forgot to add one thing: with that motor, 15t front sprocket is optimal. 14 is too short geared for even a stock motor unless you’re in tight stuff.
    Last edited by Youngwildandfree; 04-24-2020 at 04:28 AM.

  12. #11
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    Just a FYI it seems Travis and Thumper Racing are just overwhelmed right now with more work than they can almost handle. Over on the KTMtalk forum he just posed this: "Vince is correct since the world wide shut down we have had an explosion in work. We have actually run out of room and can't take any more bikes until we get through a few. Please call before sending in full engines. We can still get heads, cylinders, carbs and cranks done fairly quick.

    The phone is ringing before I even get in the shop in the morning please forgive me if we don't pick up the phone leave a message and I will get back to you. I keep getting emails from people that say they can't get through but they don't leave a message. The reason is I'm making/taking roughly 30 to 40 calls a day I still have to get engines done. Emails and phone calls work but for the near future please give us 24-48 hours to respond"
    Mine:
    2017 Husky FX 450
    2009 505 SX
    2008 525 XC-modded for mx (currently 450 cylinder)
    Dad's:
    2009 450 SX
    2008 540 XC

  13. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Youngwildandfree View Post
    You need to measure squish, not piston to valve. Like said valve clearances will be fine if you checked them and they are in spec. Surprises with that much extra lift/duration im assuming your about as close as you can get with that wossner. Should be fine. Heard nothing but great things about racers edge. Talk to John and see what he says about measuring squish on the edges. When I need a reply from thumper I email them and then call and tell them my name and email and tell them I left a email and to call or email back ASAP, I do this every time I send an email. I would ask him about the wossner, water pump kit, and water seal kit. I really recomend having the hiflo pump, grab his water seal kit too, they are way better than stock, they have two seals and the carrier or better made. these have heat issues from factory, thrown in bigger boom and you got an issue, especially when rad gets some mud in it.. Iíve also found the 540s have issues getting coolant to back side of cylinder. I checked with DJH and he confirmed this was a known issue. Iíve remedied this with my own custom cooling lines. I think the stock lines are running design, and the y kit is even worse for people that ride hard. those, the mino, and engine ice keep me below 180 even in 90-100 degree weather. But I run an oil cooler too.
    Forgot to mention, when adjusting valves, 1/6th turn method only. Feeler gauge is not accurate unless done a certain way.
    Depending on how big he went on your head work, your rev out is going to be much much much better than how these came. Although Iím afraid the bottom Will suffer with that big of a cam.
    Careful not to hold it on the limiter, Iím assuming he welded your crank pin hopefully. Thatís a must. If you hold them at high rpms a lot youíll throw the crank out of true and gaul the bearings, this is not to worry you, this will only happen if you ride it like an idiot. Just constantly bouncing off the limiter. Iíve even gone the extra mile to get a dyntech CDI and get the rev limit set lower. Weíll see how that goes.
    So for break in:
    To keep it as short as possible:
    I beleive it is beneficial to run a break in oil due to zinc content and allowing rings to seat. However, if you want to run the oil you plan on using through the engines life, IT IS NOT A PROBLEM!! I like maxima break in 15-50. The zinc content is good for cam lobes and somewhat bearings.
    So youíre breakin in a full fresh motor. Hereís what i do:
    With oil and filters in, GOBS of assembly lube on all friction surfaces in motor, especially cam, I turn the motor over several times without spark plug in it, to build oil pressure. If your engine sits for a while before start up, pull the oil line on top and squirt some oil down in the hole to get the lobes and rollers real good. Make sure coolants in and head is blead.
    Go rich in jetting, if anything because DONT WORRY ABOUT IT WHILE YOURE BREAKING IN!!! Very little idling!
    Through this whole process, be choppy on the gas, not constant RPMS.
    Start it, give it 60-120 seconds just to get the CC hot, and then heat cycle. Go up and down through the gears, reaching half throttle every gear, and then back down through the gears, engine brake fairly hard, this really helps set your rings. Do this until up to operating temp and a few more times, then shut down and let it cool until cold to the touch.
    The. Exact same thing, only 3/4 throttle this time, Decelerate a little harder. Do this cycle a few times.
    Now your bearings have found their groove and cam has some time on it.
    Change oil and check for shavings and what not.
    Now time to really break her in.
    Use the same procedure as above, only HARD! Like youíre racing.
    Choppy, wide open, up and down through the gears, decelerate HARD and really force those rings against the walls.
    Do this 5 times or so.
    By now, you have 1-2 hours on it and youíre main break in is over. Now change oil again And use your oil of choice this time. A few shavings are not a big deal. You donít want a lot of chunks. Your oil should also have a glazed metal shiny look to it, thatís the rings braking in. Normal.
    Now do the easy part, go ride it! Donít be a whimp when riding it. It still needs to be seated further. But youíve done the hard part now.
    And, seriously. These 540s are FAST engines. I donít know youíre riding level. But make sure you respect the machine. And make sure your breaks and clutch are blead and working well before taking it out. Well-blended 540s working at peak performance have numbers that are comparable to pro level XC quads. (From what Iíve heard, Iíve never dynod a pro-built quad).

    So now you need to do the easy part. Go have fun!
    Anything you need a quick reply on, or if you want to get rid of that cam, my numbers still up there for a much faster reply.
    Forgot to add one thing: with that motor, 15t front sprocket is optimal. 14 is too short geared for even a stock motor unless youíre in tight stuff.
    All good info. thanks a lot. Iím all set with thumper. My experiences with the predate the virus. I own a small business of my own and canít quit understand operating in that fashion. It seems he has good problems. Problems non the less, but solvable with proper leadership. Nothing against his abilities but customer service/ support is pretty important when you spend a good chunk of change.

    Iím looking forward to what these things can do. Iím a banshee guy. Still have two, one being an OEM 92 and another 02 with a 7mil in it. Dynoed 96/62 itís a handful for sure but a blast to ride. I have struggled to build my old yfz Into anything respectable in regards to power. If Iím around 60hp or so Iíll be satisfied given the money spent and the power associated with it. . Iím getting older and would like something a little easier to ride than my 7mil.

    My old 86atc 250r was a led 363. I have some experience with higher horsepower bikes and understand respect and awareness is incredibly important.

    Your breakin procedure seems like a good route to go. Hopefully, Iíll be able to get this thing together within the next month. Still waiting on some parts. Small parts but important things I overlooked when I made my build sheet.

    Thanks again guys and Iíll let you know what john says. Last thing what squish do your typically run? Should I be around .04?


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  14. #13
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    Understood. What little parts do you need? I might be able help out if they are on back order.
    You’re dead on with squish. 40-45 thou. Make sure when measured you use the same material on each side of the dome so piston doesent rock and give you a false reading. Deck height spec is .0- minus.005
    I understand your gripes with thumper, it’s not my buisness to tell the world what’s going on but it is out of his control right now.
    I also like it support it cuz he is the only one that MAKES cranks, cams, water pump seals, etc. and they are good products. If he goes out, we’re outta luck. He said he won’t even be in office until Thursday.
    If you’ve dealt with those builds in the past, you’ll be just fine with this guy. No a smoker guy at all myself, I’ll build them for money, I’ll never own one. In my opinion only place a banshee has a purpose is straight line. The ktm turns in a dime, super light, can lock both breaks with little pressure, butttery clutch, power everywhere with the right engine setups, national level suspension capabilities..... in all about out.
    The same people you bought your exhaust from are seriously talented with these as well. They build motors and have spare parts and bill can help with technical help all day. And he’s a super nice guy.

  15. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Youngwildandfree View Post
    Understood. What little parts do you need? I might be able help out if they are on back order.
    Youíre dead on with squish. 40-45 thou. Make sure when measured you use the same material on each side of the dome so piston doesent rock and give you a false reading. Deck height spec is .0- minus.005
    I understand your gripes with thumper, itís not my buisness to tell the world whatís going on but it is out of his control right now.
    I also like it support it cuz he is the only one that MAKES cranks, cams, water pump seals, etc. and they are good products. If he goes out, weíre outta luck. He said he wonít even be in office until Thursday.
    If youíve dealt with those builds in the past, youíll be just fine with this guy. No a smoker guy at all myself, Iíll build them for money, Iíll never own one. In my opinion only place a banshee has a purpose is straight line. The ktm turns in a dime, super light, can lock both breaks with little pressure, butttery clutch, power everywhere with the right engine setups, national level suspension capabilities..... in all about out.
    The same people you bought your exhaust from are seriously talented with these as well. They build motors and have spare parts and bill can help with technical help all day. And heís a super nice guy.
    Iím going tear it back down and just grind the cc down at 3 and 9. Better safe than sorry. I would prefer t not watery about it. Or get the motor in and the. Have to tear the top apart again. Itís out of the bike so itís easier at this point.

    (I was able to get a hold of Francis a few minutes ago and got a impeller kit from thumper. Your right about his support and knowledge of Ktmís and the parts he builds and offers)

    In Order to get the bike running. I need my intake. Oil level glass. Clutch cover gasket and clutch fluid. And my exhaust from Bill. I have an hmf I could get it going with but Iím in no rush. Itís not like I have a race or anything.

    Still waiting on. Seat cover. Seat. Rear brake pads. Graphics

    I have to. Cover the seat. Mount tires in rims. Torque the rear down. Set up my front end. Grips on. Cc ground and motor installed. Fluids/bleed the head. Exhaust mounted.

    I like to go fast. I ride 30 ft wide coal access roads and massive coal hill shots.

    My banshees are made for it. Especially the 7mill. The ktm is for the same type of riding. Just with comfort in mind. I know Iíve said it before but Iím very excited to rip a four stroke that handles around

    Thanks again man. I should have the last of my parts with the exception of the exhaust by the end of next week. So not to bad.


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  16. #15
    Senior Member KTMATVHQ Member
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    It’s not even the “CC”
    I’m taking about the outer edge of it. Just needs about 20 thou taken off.
    Travis sent me a picture of where exactly but I lost it and just haven’t ran wossner for that reason.
    To torque the axle nut proper y’all ya need is a 42mm crowfoot wrench. No reason to pay for the “special tool”.
    Use ATF for clutch blood. Mineral oil boils too easy. People also have major issues with the slaves. Travis sells o-rings to rebuild them, or a more permanent fix is a sigutech/ Oberon unit.

  17. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Youngwildandfree View Post
    Itís not even the ďCCĒ
    Iím taking about the outer edge of it. Just needs about 20 thou taken off.
    Travis sent me a picture of where exactly but I lost it and just havenít ran wossner for that reason.
    To torque the axle nut proper yíall ya need is a 42mm crowfoot wrench. No reason to pay for the ďspecial toolĒ.
    Use ATF for clutch blood. Mineral oil boils too easy. People also have major issues with the slaves. Travis sells o-rings to rebuild them, or a more permanent fix is a sigutech/ Oberon unit.
    Yea thatís what he was saying itís the outer outer edge. That they just made the 95mm bigger and didnít take anything else into consideration when making the larger pistons. They do have a light wrist pin. And the piston came coated. Looked great.

    But your right is a very very minimal modification to the head. He said just use a dremel. 9 and 3 o clock.

    If you lay the piston in the cylinder and place the head on. Hold it upside down while holding the cylinder and piston flush you can see it. He also said itís not every head. Just happens from time to time.

    I run atf in my 2 strokes so thatís an easy fix. I do have the bleeder front ktm. I know that could be an issue without it. I did rebuild the slave along with everything else. So hopefully I wonít need to go aftermarket. Clutch worked great when I test rode the bike.

    As far as the axle. Thereís no way I was going to commit to the tool. Thanks for knowledge on the crowfoot. Makes perfect sense.

    Thank again.


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  18. #17
    Senior Member KTMATVHQ Member
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    Yeah wossner is definetly a contender for best piston choice in a lot of applications.
    I learned something out of this too. I knew rfs heads were pretty inconsistent, I didn’t know that the wossner was only sometimes an issue.
    I would be tempted to get those 14:1s made because you Probly lost a cc or two freehanding the squish area. And if your CC was unshrouded, you lost even more.
    I used the special clutch bleed tool and I thought it worked great until I had someone that’s been doing it for a long time manually do it and it’s smooth and has perfect pressure. It’s not a 20
    Minute bleed and done, you have to screw with it a good amount. I can go over the procedure I use now.

  19. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Youngwildandfree View Post
    Yeah wossner is definetly a contender for best piston choice in a lot of applications.
    I learned something out of this too. I knew rfs heads were pretty inconsistent, I didnít know that the wossner was only sometimes an issue.
    I would be tempted to get those 14:1s made because you Probly lost a cc or two freehanding the squish area. And if your CC was unshrouded, you lost even more.
    I used the special clutch bleed tool and I thought it worked great until I had someone thatís been doing it for a long time manually do it and itís smooth and has perfect pressure. Itís not a 20
    Minute bleed and done, you have to screw with it a good amount. I can go over the procedure I use now.
    Itís funny you said that about the custom piston. I have a message to john ( heís out of the office for the weekend) to call me so we can discuss details.

    As far as the clutch. Itís honestly the only aspect of the build Iím a little nervous about and have no experience them. I see a lot of comments about people complaining about them ( bleeding and in general)

    I have experience with vacuum bleeding manually but if you have it down please enlighten me.


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  20. #19
    Senior Member KTMATVHQ Member
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    If you get 14:1 pistons, I may want in on it!
    You’re going to find out you have to go through a few headaches to get these KTMs as a whole to work well.
    Once you do, they’re the best quad ever made for XC. And same for the SX for motocross.
    Anyways, you’re going to be bleading for days here. It won’t just do it itself. I say try the special tool and reverse bleed. If you get full clutch pressure, leave it alone.
    My buddy looked at the tool and laugh and pulled the slave cylinder off, filled the resi and line with fluid until it would come out the bleeder screw. And began pushing in the piston. Nice and slow, all the way in, all the way out (don’t you dare make a joke).
    Do those until the piston feels like it’s not possible to be compressed with your hands, make sure you top up your master as much as possible doing all this. (Don’t overfill tho) at first a lot of air will be forced out, then in small increments. After it’s to the point you’re convinced you got most of it out, go up to the master cylinder. Set the clutch handle so it has the largest stoke possible, then slowly in and out again. You’ll see small bubbles coming out. Do it until no bubbles come out, then wait overnight and go do it again. Then again. Until you have ZERO air coming out.
    Note: if you build clutch pressure and it works, but you loose it when quad is hot, then it comes back when cool, you’re fluid is boiling (shouldn’t happen with atf)
    If you loose pressure once you ride it and it stays gone and you have to re-bleed to get it to work, your slave is passing fluid, as long as you aren’t leaking out of the master.
    Breaks are the same way, damn things are headaches. Once they’re set up well, they’re AWSOME!

  21. #20
    Junior Member Rookie
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    Quote Originally Posted by Youngwildandfree View Post
    If you get 14:1 pistons, I may want in on it!
    Youíre going to find out you have to go through a few headaches to get these KTMs as a whole to work well.
    Once you do, theyíre the best quad ever made for XC. And same for the SX for motocross.
    Anyways, youíre going to be bleading for days here. It wonít just do it itself. I say try the special tool and reverse bleed. If you get full clutch pressure, leave it alone.
    My buddy looked at the tool and laugh and pulled the slave cylinder off, filled the resi and line with fluid until it would come out the bleeder screw. And began pushing in the piston. Nice and slow, all the way in, all the way out (donít you dare make a joke).
    Do those until the piston feels like itís not possible to be compressed with your hands, make sure you top up your master as much as possible doing all this. (Donít overfill tho) at first a lot of air will be forced out, then in small increments. After itís to the point youíre convinced you got most of it out, go up to the master cylinder. Set the clutch handle so it has the largest stoke possible, then slowly in and out again. Youíll see small bubbles coming out. Do it until no bubbles come out, then wait overnight and go do it again. Then again. Until you have ZERO air coming out.
    Note: if you build clutch pressure and it works, but you loose it when quad is hot, then it comes back when cool, youíre fluid is boiling (shouldnít happen with atf)
    If you loose pressure once you ride it and it stays gone and you have to re-bleed to get it to work, your slave is passing fluid, as long as you arenít leaking out of the master.
    Breaks are the same way, damn things are headaches. Once theyíre set up well, theyíre AWSOME!
    Awesome. All great info. I agree with how particular some of the aspects of the bike. It doesnít bother me one but. Adds a sense of personal accomplishment to the build/bikes that Iím sure make them that much better.

    I was able to tear the motor back down tonight and go over everything. It looks like based of johns cc work the piston will work just fine without any clearance issues. I checked squish at both 3 and 9 oíclock and both are within spec. I also clayed that area of the piston and just placed everything together without a gasket and still no contact at all.

    I have also been turning the motor over by hand quite a bit over the last week while everything was torqued down and there is no sign of any contact at all.

    All of this doesnít really matter to much due to heat expansion but the squish is where we want it and thatís all that matters.

    John doesnít have a lot of experience with these motors compared to say Travis or others around the country. But he know how to flow a head beautifully and build reliable motors. I attached a few pictures of his head work below. I have nothing to compare it to but all in all it was a great experience working with him.

    Let me know your thoughts. Also got my tires mounted up. Just need to air them up.

    Not sure if any of you have run the cst pulse but itís the only tire other than sc3 or prowedges that put down my 7mills power.


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